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Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 04:41:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 04:42:37 Ok, so I know people like to talk about things on here without the numbers, so I'll do it. Valkyrie II's have a tracking speed of 1.44 rad/sec without mods or skills. Hammerhead II's have a tracking speed of 0.92 rad/sec. Now to compare to a 150 mm ac II, which is a gun used by frigates to take out other frigates well, it has a .35 rad/sec tracking speed. So the valkyrie II's guns can rotate on a 360 degree plane about 4 times as fast as a 150 mm ac II and almost a full half spin faster than the hammerhead. Point is, 1.44 rad/sec, which can be improved by skill, is more than enough tracking to take out frigs. Valkyrie II's have a base speed of 2520 m/s which can also be improved on via skills. In terms of pve, they are more than enough and in my opinion is a waste of space to bring lights. When you start doing pvp is where using lights work out well, but really only against inty's and some af's. It's up to you but the numbers seem to say that using medium drones against frigs in most cases will work fine, as long as they can keep up. Tracking is not an issue with drones, if anything, they are too high.
Edit: oh yes, I pulled these numbers straight out of the game, so if anyone says these numbers are wrong, screw em. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 05:00:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 05:05:12 Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 05:01:16
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 24/09/2009 04:54:10
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid Now to compare to a 150 mm ac II, which is a gun used by frigates to take out other frigates well, it has a .35 rad/sec tracking speed.
Edit: oh yes, I pulled these numbers straight out of the game, so if anyone says these numbers are wrong, screw em.
Wait, are you telling me that Valk IIs track four times as well as a 150mm AC II? Methinks you did something wrong.
-Liang
ok if .35 rad/sec is the t2 150 mm and 1.44 rad/sec is the valkyrie divide those numbers and you get 4.11. Clearly I rounded down. It takes about 4 secs to do 1.44 radials for the t2 150 while it takes 1 sec for the valkyries to do 1.44 radials. I don't see what I did wrong.
Edit: in case I need to dumb this down more a radial is a full 360 degree turn. so .35 radials is about 1/3 of a full 360 turn while 1.44 radials is about 1 and a 1/2 of a 360 turn.
Edit again: This figures are taken from base attributes before skills and mods are applied, just in case you decide to take the numbers from the guns and drones after they are equipped and your bonuses are applied. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 05:22:00 -
[3]
Ed: Also, you had such fantastic information I'll forgive you for being an utter *******. :)
lol my apologies, I get defensive when I talk about math. Thanks for the info on the sig res, forgot to incorporate that. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 05:43:00 -
[4]
Yeah, warrior II's are very popular in pvp. But if you do nuet out the frig and shutdown any velocity boost, the valkyrie will do more dmg. It depends on what you can hold, what you are flying and what you are fighting. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 06:21:00 -
[5]
what are the axis labels on that? -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 06:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid what are the axis labels on that?
X = Range, Y = DPS
-Liang
ok now we need to find one that compares tracking to sig rad. But I guess what it really comes down to is the dps. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 07:13:00 -
[7]
Same here, but won't be on until I get out of work, doing a ****ty overnight, spending most of the time on these forums debating tracking of fictionary drones lol. Well, at least it helps pass the time until I can actually play. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 09:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid Ok, so I know people like to talk about things on here without the numbers, so I'll do it. Valkyrie II's have a tracking speed of 1.44 rad/sec without mods or skills. Hammerhead II's have a tracking speed of 0.92 rad/sec.
They also have a signature resolution of 125mà
Quote: Now to compare to a 150 mm ac II, which is a gun used by frigates to take out other frigates well, it has a .35 rad/sec tracking speed.
àand the 150mm ACII has a sig res of 40m.
So your numbers aren't wrong, but they aren't comparable straight off. The tracking number is only true in relation to a target of the "correct" size, and is much worse against a smaller target and much better against a larger one. The sig res makes a hu-u-uge difference.
Using those medium drones against the standard frigate (40m sig radius), means that the actualy tracking is (1.44+40/125 =) 0.46 rad/s and (0.92+40/125 =) 0.29 rad/s. So yes, the Valkyrie IIs still track better than the autocannons, but not nearly to the degree you're suggesting.
In addition, while the drone tracking can be improved by sacrificing midslots, the autocannon's tracking can be improved by the use of midslots, lowslots, through ship bonuses, and through skills ù the AC II, in particular, requires that you have already improved your tracking by at least 15%, so effectively, the AC's tracking is at least .40 rad/s if you can fit it at all.
If you had read the entire post you would realize that we have already been discussing that. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:04:03
Originally by: SFX Bladerunner
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 05:25:58 Ed: Also, you had such fantastic information I'll forgive you for being an utter *******. :)
lol my apologies, I get defensive when I talk about math. Thanks for the info on the sig res, forgot to incorporate that.
Wait, did you just say 1 rad = 360 degrees?
because that's rather funny, seeing as it simply ISN'T TRUE.
a radial is the 'distance' travelled along the edge of a circle (arc) exactly equal to the length of the beam (beam being the length from center of circle to edge).
A circle consists of a total of 2 x PI rad, which boils down to approx. 6.28 rads. (meaning 3.14, PI, for a 180 degree half a circle) (see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radius for more info)
Regardless of that little mistake however, your logic is solid.
ok thank you for pointing that out, the term is radian though and it is the distance of an arc equal to the radius which you explained. The math is a little fuzzy as I found that it is equal to 180/pi and is always the same. This is actually a measurement of an angle which works out to be 57.2958 degrees. But you are right that it equals 6.28318306053 radians for a complete distance around the circumference. Sorry for that, I shouldn't have assumed. I think I just read that on a tracking guide back in the day and got it stuck in my head. But regardless the proportions work out and the tracking is better on a valkyrie even with sig res brought into consideration. But now I know, a radian equal 57.2958 degrees, so 1.44 radians per sec means that it will take 4.36 seconds for the gun on the valkyrie to make a 360 degree turn. Man, I can't believe I forgot that, it's like high school geometry. Thanks for the correction SFX Bladerunner. By the way, are you a Phillip K. **** fan? Reading "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" which is what Bladerunner is based off of.
Edit: Man, drone tracking seems to be pretty dumb as it seems they are constantly chasing keeping their transversal to nearly 0. Why is it so high and should this be nerfed or does it not really matter? -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:34:03 Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:30:50
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Originally by: Altair Alhammajid
Edit: Now I wonder, if 150's have 3x bonus shooting things under 30m but the valkyries track 4 times as well, does that make them still better at shooting frigs then 150s.
Sig resolution and tracking speed is essentially the same modifier in the hit chance formula. They are applied in the formula as the ratio Sig_res/tracking_speed. So a turret with the sig_res of 10 and the tracking speed of 0.01 has the same chance to hit something as a turret with the sig res of 100 and the tracking speed of 0.1, no matter the sig radius of the target.
Else one could be led to believe that a large turret never have more than 10% chance to hit something with the sig radious of 40. But f there is no angular velocity, it will always hit inside of optimal. Conversely, a small turret will still benefit from a target painter even when shooting a battleship that allready have a sig radius much larger than its sig resolution.
Man, what would be the unit on that proportion for sig rad/tracking speed? m/(rad/s) I don't even know what to do with that number. I wonder if that ratio is right and if it is what does that number mean in term of if i can hit it. Say I have 40 m sig rad with .35 rad/s tracking. that would give me a number of 114.28 m/(rad/s). What does that even mean? Something is fishy here.
Edit: CCP needs to speak up on this and help us understand this relationship because after this thread, I am more confused about tracking then ever in terms of having a numerical value to represent my chance to hit something. How do I reach a percentage? I know I would have to incorporate range, tracking speed and sig radius but how do these values affect each other and how do I reach that final percentage without collecting a ****load of data and comparing them on a graph? -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
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Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:35:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Altair Alhammajid on 24/09/2009 11:35:36 Marko Riva Your interpretation of what he's saying is all wrong, HE is right though.
Then help me understand. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:19:00 -
[12]
lol I can't believe the forums censored D ick in Phillip K. D ick. I understand its in a database that the software for the forum automatically censors but it's just funny. What if my name was D ick. Plus just censoring his name is funny because he was a very critical man of the government due to his crippling paranoia. Great writer though, wouldn't have a Scanner Darkly or Minority Report if it wasn't for him. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 13:31:00 -
[13]
Well, it's only a partial modifier. You need to look at the bigger picture of the tracking formula to understand how it's used.
Chance to hit = 0.5^([Angular vel./Tracking Speed + Sig Res/Sig Rad]¦ + [range-modifier])
Setting the range modifier aside for a moment, because we assume that everything happens at below optimal, what we're looking at is the size- and movement modifier (here coloured in red). What you have is two ratios: on the one hand the targets angular velocity compared to the turret's tracking speed, on the other hand, the turret's signature resolution compared to the target's signature radius. What you end up with is a dimensionless number (rad/s / rad/s + m/m).
It's also worth noting that exactly matching the guns' capabilities with the attributes of the target only means that you have a 50% chance of hitting ù to get more than that, your guns need to perform better than the target currently does (most commonly by having a very low angular velocity).
yeah that makes perfect sense, thanks for the formula. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
Altair Alhammajid
Minmatar Rubicon Regulars Imperial Crimson Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.25 11:46:00 -
[14]
Yeah man, good luck to you. With the math showing, it seems what you want to do is have the drones chase the frig and not orbit, which means matching or getting close to their speed. If you keep down that angular velocity they should hit pretty well, but the trick is to keep in there optimal without being able to see any data on what the drones are doing. Maybe one day CCP will give us a better drone interface that gives us there speed and angular velocity compared to the ship they are targeting. Good luck and collect some data if you can. I'll be trying. -------------------------------------------------- I love your mom. |
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